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wicked93gs

1966 Mustang 3.7L V6 swap

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Sorry, it won't let me PM you for whatever reason. I actually made a profile here to ask you a question:

 

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I am in the process of swapping a 3.7L in my 1966 Mustang. At this point I have the engine in the car, sitting on its own engine and trans mounts, in the process of grafting in a S197 tunnel to better fit the MT82 trans(plus I want a floor mounted E-brake), next up is custom headers(steering box clearance issue) and finishing up a custom oil pan...but what I was hoping to ask you is if you would be willing to share the E-Machine Shop file you created for the intake manifold flanges you had made. I have used that software to make several things in the past...in this case, because the factory intake manifold will not allow me to use an effective shock tower brace/monte carlo bar(absolutely critical in a 66 mustang) I plan to make a custom manifold...or rather an adapter plate. BMW individual throttle bodies are Oval port where they connect to the head so it would be pretty simple to turn a thick flange into an adapter plate and then use air horns to tune runner length...but I dont have the specs for port spacing and bolt pattern...but with the file you have if you are willing to share it(if you still have it), I could make fairly quick work of it. I have some specs for a Duratec 30....but I already know the port spacing is different on that engine

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This topic is way better than a PM!  You need to keep updating it as you go, very cool.  I still have the files, I will dig them out and send them to you as soon as I get a few minutes.  I'll rename this topic too.

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BMW ITB’s. I love it. Man... what I would give for ITB’s.


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D760-3800A.jpg

 

BMW has a lot of different throttle bodies for their different models...and its very difficult to find reliable sizing info...but most tend to be 46mm...which is about perfect for our engine...at least judging by the Jenvey kits(they use 45mm for the Duratec 30 and a tapered 48mm for the cyclone kit).

 

In any case, all the BMW throttle bodies I have seen have oval ports on the head side...the above picture is of v10 throttle bodies, which would be my first choice because all the other ones are straight, but the v10 TBs are angled somewhat...this, along with curved air horns should alleviate any hood clearance issues. The injector opening is on the "inside" like the Duratec 30 rather than the "outside" like the Duratec 37...this isn't much of an issue though...if using an adapter plate, you block off the Duratec 37 notch and use the BMW  TB injector location...which gives you a better injector angle anyway...and you can likely get away with using a Duratec 30 fuel rail as well(I have a couple Duratec 30 longblocks sitting around as well)...even if you cant use a Duratec 30 fuel rail, its a matter of an hour or 2 to drill out a couple fuel rail blanks for whatever injectors you are using(Though those fuel rail blanks aren't the easiest thing to make brackets for, ask me how I know)

The Jenvey kit is nice...but quite simply too expensive to be practical on any level...an adapter plate plus a set of used BMW throttle bodies on the other hand is likely to run less than $800 all in....of course, I won't be using the stock ECU to run it(I cant stand drive-by-wire)...I have a Megasquirt 3 with MS3X expansion I built to run the engine. It could be done on the stock ECU easily enough too I am sure...but would require a custom tune....on a 66 mustang I have manual brakes though...so I don't have to worry about little issues like generating enough vacuum to run power brakes...its a set up that will likely work better for this particular build than it would a fully fledged s197 or s550 mustang

 

I appreciate your help on this little project Unclenard, saves me a lot of time and guesswork with a caliper that may or may not be exactly what I need.

 

P.S. Another advantage to using BMW throttle bodies...Dinan offers a throttle body boring service that increases the size 3mm if a particular build requires more airflow(though honestly, any machine shop should be able to bore out a throttle body if you can find a new throttle plate.

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D760-3800A.jpg
 
BMW has a lot of different throttle bodies for their different models...and its very difficult to find reliable sizing info...but most tend to be 46mm...which is about perfect for our engine...at least judging by the Jenvey kits(they use 45mm for the Duratec 30 and a tapered 48mm for the cyclone kit).
 
In any case, all the BMW throttle bodies I have seen have oval ports on the head side...the above picture is of v10 throttle bodies, which would be my first choice because all the other ones are straight, but the v10 TBs are angled somewhat...this, along with curved air horns should alleviate any hood clearance issues. The injector opening is on the "inside" like the Duratec 30 rather than the "outside" like the Duratec 37...this isn't much of an issue though...if using an adapter plate, you block off the Duratec 37 notch and use the BMW  TB injector location...which gives you a better injector angle anyway...and you can likely get away with using a Duratec 30 fuel rail as well(I have a couple Duratec 30 longblocks sitting around as well)...even if you cant use a Duratec 30 fuel rail, its a matter of an hour or 2 to drill out a couple fuel rail blanks for whatever injectors you are using(Though those fuel rail blanks aren't the easiest thing to make brackets for, ask me how I know)
The Jenvey kit is nice...but quite simply too expensive to be practical on any level...an adapter plate plus a set of used BMW throttle bodies on the other hand is likely to run less than $800 all in....of course, I won't be using the stock ECU to run it(I cant stand drive-by-wire)...I have a Megasquirt 3 with MS3X expansion I built to run the engine. It could be done on the stock ECU easily enough too I am sure...but would require a custom tune....on a 66 mustang I have manual brakes though...so I don't have to worry about little issues like generating enough vacuum to run power brakes...its a set up that will likely work better for this particular build than it would a fully fledged s197 or s550 mustang
 
I appreciate your help on this little project Unclenard, saves me a lot of time and guesswork with a caliper that may or may not be exactly what I need.


Yea, the jenvy kit is something I always wanted but will never have. Trying to get someone to tune it + having to pass carb every two years, it’s already a pain swapping my tune, CAI and TB. Clearly, I’m just lazy lol.

But man o man, I can’t wait to see the numbers a ITB setup with no internal modifications would make. The jenvy cars make great power, but they are SSM 4.0 stroker motors if memory serves.


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Tuning ITBs isn't the black magic its made out to be....there is a flow meter tool you can get to equalize them if you insist on using the needle valves they all come with, the tool costs about $50 and makes short work of balancing them....but the better way is to remove the needle valve entirely and use a hose barb in its place and plumb all those barbs to a single SPICA valve in a distribution block...that way, all the ITBs are automatically balanced off of one valve vs. one valve per TB. Once the throttle bodies are balanced....at that point its just a matter of a custom tune to take advantage.....and the nice thing is that you can buy a few different sets of air horns and swap tunes whenever you swap air horns...so you can "tune" your car for whatever you are doing...street driving, drag racing, etc....in reality it will just change the RPM you make the best power at....but it can be useful.

 

As for power returns....its hard to say, I honestly wouldn't expect huge numbers....considering Ginetta G50s were making anywhere from 300-340HP and they were running on Motec(if I remember right) standlone ECUs with who know what type of exhaust setup...I suspect with longtubes,  an X pipe, and a good tune ITBs would put you right around that 340-350HP mark(flywheel)...more importantly though, throttle response would be far better...especially if you have an aluminum flywheel(and better yet if you aren't on drive-by-wire)

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I am thinking an adapter plate like this(This particular file I made loosely based on Duratec 30 specs and no specs for the BMW side yet so its not exactly accurate)...and this particular plate is something like 1.25" thick(probably more than it needs to be since on a glance none of the bolt holes will overlap)

ITBadapter.jpg

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Tuning ITBs isn't the black magic its made out to be....there is a flow meter tool you can get to equalize them if you insist on using the needle valves they all come with, the tool costs about $50 and makes short work of balancing them....but the better way is to remove the needle valve entirely and use a hose barb in its place and plumb all those barbs to a single SPICA valve in a distribution block...that way, all the ITBs are automatically balanced off of one valve vs. one valve per TB. Once the throttle bodies are balanced....at that point its just a matter of a custom tune to take advantage.....and the nice thing is that you can buy a few different sets of air horns and swap tunes whenever you swap air horns...so you can "tune" your car for whatever you are doing...street driving, drag racing, etc....in reality it will just change the RPM you make the best power at....but it can be useful.
 
As for power returns....its hard to say, I honestly wouldn't expect huge numbers....considering Ginetta G50s were making anywhere from 300-340HP and they were running on Motec(if I remember right) standlone ECUs with who know what type of exhaust setup...I suspect with longtubes,  an X pipe, and a good tune ITBs would put you right around that 340-350HP mark(flywheel)...more importantly though, throttle response would be far better...especially if you have an aluminum flywheel(and better yet if you aren't on drive-by-wire)


I thought the race cars running that setup were up near the 400 mark, more like 350ish to the wheels..?

Dyno numbers are hard to be accurate with since dyno’s change dyno to dyno, but I don’t think I’m much lower than 340-350 crank and I still run cats. Id hope a well tuned ITB setup would net at least some additional power. And I have to admit, quicker throttle response than my MPT tune would be insane. It’s pretty much instant, that said, I do run an 11.8 lbs aluminum flywheel which doesn’t hurt that fact lol.

Anyways, any amount of research and development into the 3.7 is amazing. I really can’t wait to see what you come up with, I’ll definitely be keeping my eye on this.

And... dyno chart just for an additional data point for your research/knowledge, although it sounds like you know vastly more than myself.
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4 hours ago, wicked93gs said:

I appreciate your help on this little project Unclenard, saves me a lot of time and guesswork with a caliper that may or may not be exactly what I need.

Well there wasn't any calipers or micrometers involved in that flange design.  At the time I wasn't concerned with it being that precise as what I was doing was more of a loose experiment (albeit an expensive one).  I used an extra lower intake to take measurements not the actual head.  The intake ports in the flange are not the correct size, there was work done to route them out to match the runners after the fact.  I am trying to find pictures to help explain how it was done.  The injectors holes will drilled out larger and bungs welded in a worked as well.  I'll either find more pictures or take some to better explain it.

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Well, the port size is easy enough to grab with a caliper(though the corner radius is still something of a guess)...its the bolt pattern I am more worried about since the best I can do winging it is throw a couple bolts in there, measure outside to outside of the bolts and subtract the diameter of one bolt...and nothing I can think of is going to give me a correct offset from the port centerline to the centerline of the bolt pattern line.

Injector bungs and holes happily aren't a concern at all with the new injector location on the actual throttle bodies...I would delete them from the file entirely(would prefer not to have the notch in the head at all...but using stock seals I can just ignore the minor flow disruption it will cause...certainly not worth the effort of filling unless I was doing a full engine rebuild(though you could also theoretically eliminate them by swapping to Ecoboost 3.5L heads...a useful option if you want to use aftermarket Ecoboost turbo manifolds I guess)

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Unclenard...did you ever find that drawing? Trying to verify what I have so far of a port spacing of 106mm(as welt as bolt centers of 106mm on the passenger side(same on driver's side except the back hole between the last port and water entry, which is a different spacing I am still trying to determine)...also need to verify bolt spacing offset from port center somehow. Going to order the BMW TBs today so I should have measurements for the top side soon(within a week or so I would guess)

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On 11/19/2019 at 11:51 AM, wicked93gs said:

Unclenard...did you ever find that drawing? Trying to verify what I have so far of a port spacing of 106mm(as welt as bolt centers of 106mm on the passenger side(same on driver's side except the back hole between the last port and water entry, which is a different spacing I am still trying to determine)...also need to verify bolt spacing offset from port center somehow. Going to order the BMW TBs today so I should have measurements for the top side soon(within a week or so I would guess)

I'll see tonight what I can find....

 

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Thanks....will also be copying your o-ring groove since it looks to work perfectly(its a lot easier than having to cut a custom gasket every time...I am sure it seals better too and o-rings dont leave gasket material behind on mating surfaces)

 

On a different note: I did order the BMW ITBs...I went with 2008 v8 M3 ITBs though...they arent curved like the v10 version...but they have a better setup for ITB balancing. I would love to be able to adapt the factory TB to actuate these but am trying to figure out how to make a single stepper motor pull(or push) in two opposite directions at once(the linkage for each bank must pull inward at a 45 degree downward angle to open the valves). If I can find a way to make the TB stepper motor actuate these...then I can use the stock ECU(retuned of course) to run them....otherwise I get to tune everything from scratch with Megasquirt. Actuating this by cable is actually easy...you just run 2 separate cables off the throttle pedal and one cable goes to each bank...so a hybrid cable/stepper motor actuation may be possible.

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Mostly finished headers test-fit.(Still have to do the back-half and the collectors, but that portion I can actually finish out of the car on a cold day). I am pretty sure I will have to install the headers before the engine during vehicle re-assembly. I am finally able to move on to the rotisserie stage after I get some final angle measurements on these for the lower firewall area(Probably just 2 45-degree angles, but not 100% positive since the engine sits at 3-degrees

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The M3 throttle bodies came in today...I guess its time to truly get started on this little project. Happily this set came with injectors and fuel rail as well...honestly I just wanted ITB-optimized injectors...going to hope that a Duratec30 fuel rail fits them...it would save me a lot of trouble...the BMW fuel rail wont because of different bore spacing...and the fact that I am moving the injectors inboard onto the throttle bodies for a better injector angle since I will no longer have the limitations of the stock Cyclone manifold as far as injector placement goes

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Almost there...short a few details(or rather a few details are wrong here, such as the head side bolt pattern offset)...this flange is built in such a way that one flange can be flipped to fit either side...this will be changed to be specific by the end of the process I am sure(it will need to be if I o-ring the head side of the flange. The BMW side uses o-rings as well, so some things are going to need to change, but this gives an idea...it also shows the slight difference in port shapes that will likely need to be hand-ported out.

ITBadapter-rev2.0.jpg

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Strangely, the Duratec30 Fuel rail is VERY close to a bolt-on fuel rail solution...these pictures are with the Duratec30 injectors, but I suspect with a little bracket bending at least 2 brackets will bolt right up using the BMW injectors...though the wiring harness connectors would need to be turned to face inward.

 

The nice thing about this particular fuel rail is that it can double as a base for whatever throttle linkage system I come up with...the real issue is that the linkages must pull outward and downward at a 45 degree angle from this orientation...that's a tough linkage to accomplish and will require 4 wheels to actuate with 1 throttle cable

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I was hoping you could give me a better Idea of this measurement Unclenard...I have it as 7.5mm but that is just a somewhat close guess. This should really be the last thing I need before getting the adapter plates made...oh and the actual diameter of the hole itself...is it a m8 bolt? Or m6?

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3 hours ago, wicked93gs said:

I was hoping you could give me a better Idea of this measurement Unclenard...I have it as 7.5mm but that is just a somewhat close guess. This should really be the last thing I need before getting the adapter plates made...oh and the actual diameter of the hole itself...is it a m8 bolt? Or m6?

Here is a picture from my lower intake I used.  The ports aren't perfect ovals so it is hard to say exactly.  But using a couple of straight edges it appears to be about 13.5mm from the middle of the port to the middle of the mounting hole.  I can't recall what the factory bolt size is but the mounting holes in this lower intake are 5/8" or about 8mm.  I can't find my mm ruler right now for these measurements.

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Don't forget by replacing the lower intake you will need some parts for the cooling tube to be replaced that is built into the stock lower intake.  These prices are what I paid at Tasca at the time.  The mounting holes for the coolant flange didn't line up right and I had to improvise with some brackets off of the intake flanges.  The stock lower is on the left, the coolant flange is on the right that I used.  You can see the back mounting holes line up perfect but the other one is off and the other one doesn't even exist in the factory lower intake.

F150 water hose (tube) – BL3Z8A505A – $16.68
Engine Coolant Outlet Flange – BL3Z8C368B – $56.41
Engine Coolant Thermostat Housing Bolt – W503279S437 – $0.55/each – qty 4 – total $2.20

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Thanks...I also just remembered I have an Ecoboost 3.5L manifold sitting on my shelf I can get the bolt pattern off of(yes...it bolts up to the 3.7L block, but has no injector bung provision..theoretically you could use just a spacer plate with a built in injector bung and run it on a 3.7L...but the injector angle would be less than ideal..which would be ok if you were running a boosted 3.7L...but no room to run an injector inside like the ITBs...all that room is taken up by the water pipe and the runners arent tall enough anyway). As for the water pipe itself...I was thinking of just using a benchtop bandsaw(or even an angle grinder) and cutting the whole thing directly off of the stock lower manifold assembly to get one that bolts up directly...it would also give me an excuse to cut the lower manifold off directly above the injector bungs and play with making what they call a "ghetto blaster" like we used to do on Neons back in the day:

 

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Ghetto Blaster manifolds simply use PVC pipe and epoxy to attach PVC plenums and the like to composite intake manifold runners. This type of manifold was very cheap to make and very effective. The above picture was a simple one, but you can actually make PVC runners as well out of PVC and use heat to re-shape them to a degree. This would be ideal for the Cyclone engine because you could use heat to reshape the end of the pipe to match the port, then run the runners in a crossover fashion(because the middle would still be round and hopefully still be able to pass through) and have 2 separate plenums, one over each bank...and 2 separate TBs too. Once they are all sanded down and painted they don't look too bad either. Neon guys routinely picked up 10-15HP with them just from the increased plenum volume alone.

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Not sure if it would even be of any help, or if you have the means to do it yourself or already thought about it... but you can always 3d print a set of the spacer plate/manifold deals to work out your exact dimensions with, or at least see how close your dimensions got. Shit, I’d print em at work for you if you wanted. But anyways, just a thought. Could be helpful, but if your planning to have to use some elbow grease via porting then after the fact anyways, me be a waste.


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I am working with the same E-Machine shop software UncleNard did for his manifold...it has certain limitations....one of which being that you can't transition from one shape to another(understandable because most machine shops would have no way of doing so over the wide range of shapes and material thicknesses needed). The porting doesn't worry me though, its literally about 5 minutes per port with my porting bit for that small amount of material, then a few more minutes with some sandpaper. I did actually consider 3D printing the entire thing...there are a number of plastics with the heat tolerance needed(namely Nylon or ABS) but in the end decided aluminum would be the better choice. Not so worried about the measurements being off...that is all on me to double and triple check...tedious but not too difficult.

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