Jump to content
Stevethe11th

Project "I picked the wrong hobby"

Recommended Posts

So I pulled the trigger and ordered the 19' SVE Drift wheels. Not sure if I should go for suspension or power next. I know suspension would be a lot more useful for autocross, but you can never have enough power. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Whelp.... Suspension will make a bigger difference in anything track related than power. lol. But, like you said, power is fun.

 

I did power first, but, from an actual go fast on track/autox perspective that was the wrong choice. But, id probably do it again lol.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is a minimum level of suspension upgrades that I feel you just have to do before anything else(rear upper and lower control arms with relo-brackets, adjustable panhard bar, and dampers all the way around) and you can do the complete job for less than a grand.

 

Steeda or BMR for the control arms, plus a plethora of damper choices to fit your budget. Cheapest damper set I would pick would be either FRPP or Steeda, ultimate (budget) choice would be either Eibach non-adjustables or Viking adjustables.

 

For the Cyclone the other "mandatory" upgrade is the 3.73 rear gear plus one-piece driveshaft. If the car sees track/auto-cross use a lot then I would also upgrade the limited slip diff at the same time as the gears. Something like a Torsen or Wavetrac would be an amazing upgrade.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree. Go with swapping out the drive shaft and upgrading the gears. You'll have peace of mind knowing you wont have a shaft that will blow up and the gears will be able to fully use any power you have on hand already. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Grimace427 said:

There is a minimum level of suspension upgrades that I feel you just have to do before anything else(rear upper and lower control arms with relo-brackets, adjustable panhard bar, and dampers all the way around) and you can do the complete job for less than a grand.

 

Steeda or BMR for the control arms, plus a plethora of damper choices to fit your budget. Cheapest damper set I would pick would be either FRPP or Steeda, ultimate (budget) choice would be either Eibach non-adjustables or Viking adjustables.

 

For the Cyclone the other "mandatory" upgrade is the 3.73 rear gear plus one-piece driveshaft. If the car sees track/auto-cross use a lot then I would also upgrade the limited slip diff at the same time as the gears. Something like a Torsen or Wavetrac would be an amazing upgrade.

What’s wrong with the stock diff? I haven’t heard anything about it before.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Agreed, 3.73's do wonders, and you need a nice DS to go with or you will split your stock one in half, and that could kill you in multiple different ways.... So don't not do a DS when you do gears on the 3.7 S197.

 

The stock suspension is pretty crap. Its really just there so the car can be driven, and for the normal person to not hate. The geometry is great, the chassis is great, the capability is high. But, without proper spring rates and damping its pretty garbage. 

 

Also, I wouldn't replace the upper control arm. I have never heard of the OEM one failing on track, I have heard of all others failing, and it will add a lot of NVH from what I have heard for really very little gain. IF you can get a BOSS 302S/R (I think the good one comes on both of those cars) stock unit, it would be good, but those are impossible to find and very expensive. I wouldn't replace the Upper, even the folks on the track ponies FB group advise against it. I don't always agree with them on everything, but in this case the fact they say to keep the stock one tells you you really don't need a different one. They basically laugh people out of the page who run koni yellows because of "how garbage and unreliable" they are on track; most of these dudes are serious track drivers who don't dick around with cheap koni's lol.

 

Stock diff is fine. Yea, a torsen or a few other options are better, but, that is way way way later. Much better gains to be had with other parts before you start down that road. Yes, a nice diff will help get power down, but without better suspension, tires, and serious brakes, that isn't your weak link. Also the close to a grand a diff and install will cost you, you can do a lot of very valuable suspension work that will make a huge difference. I am still on the stock diff, fluid has been changed once, and it still works fine. It has worked plenty well actually from my experience. Sure, I am not trying to break track records, but neither are you (yet), and the diff will hold you back from records, but it won't hold you back at our skill level. Thats the same sort of upgrade that a watts link would be; pretty deep into the mod game... Sure, once my diff takes a shit I won't be rebuilding it, I will swap it out for a better unit, but like I said, I see no reason to swap it at this point, the stock one is totally fine.

 

To put the car into perspective, I was a second slower than an ND miata with DIREZZA ZII star spec tires (granted, they are what, 225 or 235? but car weighs much less) and a much more experienced driver driving harder than I was at buttonwillow. So, the car is plenty capable with the diff it has lol. Those miatas fuckin slay since they are so balanced and you can drive them on the limit... So, point is, the diff won't hold you back from having a great time lol, but good suspension, gearing, and grip will certainly give you huge gains!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ligistx over here with the dissertation on what mustang mods to do next. Lol, but really thanks for all the info it really helps out. Where do you learn all of this? Is it just online or do you know people?

And I was seriously looking at an na miata for my first car but my dad wouldn't let me get a car older than myself and the other ones just don't have the same charm to me. The miatas are definitely great cars and if they had more power without having to go FI I might be driving one instead of the mustang.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Stevethe11th said:

Ligistx over here with the dissertation on what mustang mods to do next. Lol, but really thanks for all the info it really helps out. Where do you learn all of this? Is it just online or do you know people?

And I was seriously looking at an na miata for my first car but my dad wouldn't let me get a car older than myself and the other ones just don't have the same charm to me. The miatas are definitely great cars and if they had more power without having to go FI I might be driving one instead of the mustang.

I have read a lot of shit online lol. Between this forum, the facebook groups that are more track focused, talking to people who do this as their profession, being bored at work with buddies who understand ground vehicle dynamics and suspension geometry and actually drawing out forces on cars and tires and shit in paint on a VOIP call with each other lol. Remember... I work with a bunch of highly skilled engineers some of which are car nerds. I have a much better understanding of suspension geometry and aerodynamics now after those few hour calls.

 

But, also, talking to those who do this for a living, seeing what their cars are set up like, and talking to serious enthusiasts at the track who do this as side jobs and hobbies. Its just a lot of knowledge building and trying to sort through the bullshit. Like, even the folks on the corner ponies group do things I wouldn't agree with, but that is because they are coming from a very different angle. One good example, they will laugh a koni yellow user off the page, and will say brake ducts, brake ducts, brake ducts. From their perspective, they are setting up actual track cars... I will link a pic of the vorshlag shop car (guy who started corner ponies group) as an example. B61G9789-M.jpg

 

See, when you see shit like that, then you read what they have to say, you get a certain understanding of their end goal and expectations from the platform, as well as their experience, but most importantly you see their perspective and remember they are likely projecting what they have experienced onto others. And their experience is Koni's suck and you NEED brake ducts. You know why that is....? Cuz they run 800 lb/in springs up front on that car, my SR lowering springs are 230.................................. A koni won't EVER be able to keep up anywhere close to that, I bet they fail at the 3-350 lb/in mark which isn't even "all that high". The MCS coils I planned and have since decided against buying, I was going to do 450 or 550 up front... So, to a group of folks who throw aero at a car, super wide slicks, a phat wang, and the highest temp brake pads they can find and drive the living fuck out of the car, koni yellows are probably total garbage, and brake ducting is required because without it they will over temp the brake system.

 

So, now, take a step back. Dial it back like 11 notches from that and try and asses what your and my car goals are; they are not that. I want a nice capable and compliant car, I never plan to run a full race slick, and I don't intend to drive the car in anger chasing a win in a legit wheel to wheel race, and I want to drive it on a sunday and enjoy it.... So, where does that get us? It doesn't get us an intense aero package and lots of tires, and without those things, you don't need 800 lb/in springs, and without that, you don't need MCS or Penske dampers. When you get back to normal car things, koni yellows are fine. Don't run them on super lowering springs, and don't throw insane spring rates at them, and they do ok.... I got a ride in a national class winning Z06 corvette at AutoX, stock power and suspension stiffens/goemetry class (whatever letters that was), and they ran koni yellows and rebuilt them at the end of every season, and let me tell you, that. thing. fucking. hauled. it hauled every bit of ass at that entire place. So, its a "fine" shock that car proved to me lol. But it was on the same sort of tire I have because that was the class limit... No aero, etc. Then brake ducting. Well, I just did a pretty serious pad upgrade, G-Loc R16's are no joke. That is the second highest pad they make IIRC, but I don't have ducts. After talking to the dude who helped me set that up, it sorta made sense because before that I planned to, cuz why not #racecar.

 

So, brake ducting. It makes sense in a car like that because of just how hard your going on them, the speeds your carrying and ultimately heat in the way of friction you need to dissipate. With that sorta tire, being that wide, with that much aero, you can brake way later which means your going many MPH more, and that compounds over the sessions length to being A LOT of heat in the system that you need to remove, or you will over temp the system. Be it boiled fluid of faded pads. But, for folks like us, who super won't be at that level, do what I did. Buy a brake pad that has a temp range that your system will always be in and won't be exceed. My pads are good to 2000f, I WONT EVER get them hotter than that lol, but I will likely get them into the meat of their working capability which is 1000-1200f. But I don't need ducts because I simply don't need them, I won't over temp the system, so for me ducts will just cause unneeded thermal shock to the system; I would rather get them up to temp (yes, 1200f is hot, but within the temp handling of the system with ease) and let them stay at temp. If I put ducts on, all I will be doing is cooling them down (potentially bellow their really good heat band where they work optimally) and thermal shock is just not good for anything, ever, for any reason. So, for me, the answer was get a pad that has really good characteristics: high friction coefficient, high heat capacity, good pedal modulation at high temps, and not ttttoooo expensive and forgo brake ducts.

 

So, this is sorta how I go about it. I take what folks have done, see what they are building/anticipating their car doing/needing, and try and figure out what is snake oil, what is bullshit, or what is good advice just for someone who isn't me. I don't need a class winning racecar, but I also don't want some hick built mustang done super stupid. But this is where I go back to the upper control arm argument. Since corner ponies even says until you are super serious, keep the upper control arm, odds are its probably totally fine for you and I lol. They do recommend a Torsen T2 for pretty serious track day goers, but.... we are not that, not to them. To me, serious track daying would be like, twice a month at the intermediate to advanced point to pass level. To them, serious track daying is that car I posted the pic of, so remember, everything is relative. They aint playing point to pass, they are wheel to wheel racing, fully caged cars, 6 point harnesses, class regulations, hanns devices, national point chasing people. Perspective is key, and reading, a lot, like a lot. lol.

 

/s197modmentality

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Before they went wide body...
B61G4816-L.jpg

Like, that a serious amount of tire and grip that none of us in this forum will likely ever have or know what to do with lol. Thats fucking pogoing at autocross. Hot hatches pogo, not mustangs.... Mustangs just slide, unless you have a metric ass load of grip and a stiff ass spring with not a lot of upward travel.

 

*edit, hot hatches pogo the rear, but, still, thats pretty arbitrary at this point lol. normal cars don't do that, seriously, they just slide. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Post 229 may be of interest for the UCA:

http://www.vorshlag.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7806&page=23

 

But, remember, take it all with a grain of salt as well. Look at the car they are building, and where their mindset is. And then remember, they still say 90% of track/autox folks (their 90% is like... out 99.9% lol) should keep the stock UCA. I have also talked to their lead engineer on the phone a few times, cool dude. Seemingly knows his shit, just... his shit is not our shit. Humble dude tho, seemingly a really cool dude.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow thats a lot of words. Thanks for linking vorshlag, they definitely look like they know what they're talking about. And yeah I'm majoring in mechanical engineering so hopefully I'll know as much as your friends in a couple years. 

I think my plan will be diff and gears next. I still need to find a shop that will do it and I'm sure my parents will have a heart attack from me spending that much. I think I asked before but I'm not too sure, you said you still get like 27 mpg on the highway with 3.73s right? Cause I'm going to be doing more of that pretty soon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yea, I get probs 27ish with 3.73’s. The gearing helps a lot, and the drive shaft is a must, and reduces a bit of rotational mass as well, so that helps a bit too.

I really wouldn’t worry about going to a Torsten or something like that yet. That’s just a lot of money better spent on literally almost anything else at this point for you.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So going back to when I first got my tuner and finding errors saying its for the wrong car which is all in a different thread. Nothing has really changed because I haven't modified the car but now that I'm getting new wheels I tried contacting sct for the past two hours and still haven't spoken to anyone. I've been calling every ten minutes and it has just said their reps are busy and hanging up, but finally I got into a queue and I was number 47... I asked for a call back but I doubt I'm going to be hearing from anyone today and this is the one day I have free time for this. 😠

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So going back to when I first got my tuner and finding errors saying its for the wrong car which is all in a different thread. Nothing has really changed because I haven't modified the car but now that I'm getting new wheels I tried contacting sct for the past two hours and still haven't spoken to anyone. I've been calling every ten minutes and it has just said their reps are busy and hanging up, but finally I got into a queue and I was number 47... I asked for a call back but I doubt I'm going to be hearing from anyone today and this is the one day I have free time for this. 

 

What do you need from SCT? If your running an MPT tune which I believe you are if memory serves, you need MPT. And odds are, if you want them to edit it, they are going to want you to pay again I would imagine. But, that said, what tires will you be running? I never even changed my tire diameter in the tune since it’s so damn close to the stock size anyways, and I can easily change it since my tune is unlocked (yours likely is as well...) and I still never even bothered. One of these days I will. Maybe. Lol.

 

For gearing changes you for sure have to. With my stock tune I hit the 114 mph speed limiter all the time on the freeway .

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, LIGISTX said:

 

What do you need from SCT? If your running an MPT tune which I believe you are if memory serves, you need MPT. And odds are, if you want them to edit it, they are going to want you to pay again I would imagine. But, that said, what tires will you be running? I never even changed my tire diameter in the tune since it’s so damn close to the stock size anyways, and I can easily change it since my tune is unlocked (yours likely is as well...) and I still never even bothered. One of these days I will. Maybe. Lol.

 

For gearing changes you for sure have to. With my stock tune I hit the 114 mph speed limiter all the time on the freeway emoji1787.png.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Well when I was trying to revert back to stock and it said incorrect vehicle so I needed to make sure everything was working right. Plus I don't really love running on 93, it'd be cheaper to buy an 87 tune then to just keep running premium. 

But anyways, I spoke too soon. At 6:17 (they close at 6) sct called me back and helped me get everything fixed. It took about a half hour to get the stock tune flashed back on and he also told me that everyone who calls before 6 will be attended to that same day and that there was still another 11 people behind me.

So I want to retract my previous statement, they were very helpful once I got on the phone with them and I was surprised by their dedication to help every customer.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And one more thing, I still have the 93 tune so I plan on running that while I still have premium gas in my car and then I'll look into new tunes from MPT.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well fuck, I put the 93 tune back on and now the engine won't turn over. I put the battery charger on it and it was kind of low but I'm not sure that's the problem.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So the battery was completely charged and everything was receiving power with the ignition on so I reverted it back to stock and it started right up. The sct support guy did mention that the car has been flashed since the tuner was last used so maybe the previous owner had a problem with the tune and had a dealer reflash it? I guess I need to contact MPT now and see what would cause that to happen. When my car didn't start up I think a little poo came out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Talked to MPT and they said that tunes are non-transferable so once I bought the car I can't get any work done to that tune. Which makes since from a business standpoint but still sucks. He suggested not running the tune (which I think anyone could say that if it's not letting the car start) but I guess I need to order some new tunes now.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.