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jlawrence613

Longtubes and the Cyclone Engine

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Synposis:

 

This thread is meant to be a comprehensive source of information regarding errors when using BBK Longtube Headers on the Cyclone Mustang application.  This has come about as a result of a multitude of question surrounding BBK Longtube Headers (Part no. 1642 & 16420) and overwhelming amount of users reporting engine codes.

 

On many users applications (including mine), after some time, the CEL (Check Engine Light) will come on post-installation.  Upon using handheld devices to pull the codes, it has been determined that there is an issue seemingly specific to BBK involving the front O2 (Oxygen) sensors and the BBK supplied Sensor Extensions (Part no. 1111) or a combination thereof.  The code numbers vary, but always seem to be of the same nature.  The following codes have been reported:

 

P219A

P219B

P2197

P2195

P2251-P2255

Others

 

Each of these codes either directly or indirectly are sensor related.  These codes are almost always associated with users who have switched to BBK headers

 

 

 

 

Troubleshooting:

 

Software:

Datalog... datalog... datalog... A reputable tuner SHOULD be able to tell you if there is anything they can do on their end.  If there is nothing they can tweak in the tune to make this code go away with no other changes to the car, it is more than likely a mechanical issue.

 

Mechanical:

 

Check, clean, re-evaluate...  Check all connections to eliminate the possibility of a leak.  This includes the intake side of the engine.  Unmetered air will cause issues including inducing a lean/rich condition.  Remove this possibility from the equation by checking all connections and re-torquing the header connections as needed.  Clean your intake filter and MAF (Mass AirFlow sensor)

 

Nearly each of the above mentioned codes pertains to Sensor 1 (front sensors) and refer to Bank 1 or Bank 2 (or both in some cases).  We can eliminate Sensor 2 (rear sensors) in this case because we are going to assume these sensors are turned OFF.  Exhaust changes are typically more in-depth than the casual Cyclone owner will venture.  We can conclude that those who DO venture down this path are fairly modded and tuned by this point.  Tuners typically turn the rear O2 sensors off and thus do not report readings.

 

Bank 1 in our application is the side with Cylinder #1.  In this case, the passenger side.  If you are showing an issue on only one side, the first step would be to isolate the sensor that is at fault.  If you have an issue on Bank 1, swap the sensors ONLY.  If the code then jumps to Bank 2, then you may conclude the issue is with the sensor.  The extensions are more than likely reading correctly because the Bank 1 side is showing no issue with the sensor/extension combo.  The extension on Bank 2 that WAS reading correctly is now showing an error due to the bad sensor that is now connected to it.

 

If the sensors are swapped and the issues persist, repeat the above process with the SENSOR EXTENSIONS only.  If the code jumps banks, it can be inferred that one of the extensions is faulty.

 

What we know:

 

Written in Italics font because these are guesstimates based off of information on the web.  There is no combination of BBK headers that does not exhibit symptoms of this problem.  Both chrome and ceramic, off-road and catted mid-pipes, and any combination of these has reported issues.  Both naturally aspirated and forced induction applications have the same issues.  

 

So why BBK? 

 

At this time, we believe it has to do with the new sensor location of the BBK-brand headers.  The sensors are relocated to the lower bung just before the connection to the midpipe (fig4).  It could be a matter of electrical timing, reading, or some sort of sorcery, but it appears that the ECU does not play well with the new location. (We believe it has to do with how efficiently the sensors and headers heat up and report accurate readings to the ECU)  There are reports of users going through multiple sets of extensions from BBK, soldering wires to eliminate the need for extensions altogether, and even unclipping the sensors from the body of the car to make them stretch with ZERO play in the circuit.  In all 3 cases, codes are still reported.  Despite BBK's claims that ALL longtube headers require extensions as the sensors are relocated (fig1), this not the case and just about a flat out lie.  The Borla X-1 (fig2) and Bassni Exhaust Longtube headers available for our application retain the stock (or VERY close to stock) sensor positions.  Due to the popularity of the BBK headers however, it can not be determined if the Borla/Bassani design eliminates this issue due to a small sampling size.  Mac headers share the same design as BBK, but again, due to sampling size, we cannot confirm that there is a specific issue with this sensor relocation design, or with BBK more specifically.

 

Solutions

 

None that are conclusive at this time.  We are still trying to figure out ways to combat this issue...

1. Untested at this time is exhaust wrap.  We hypothesize that potentially using the wrap to help retain heat may quell this issue.

2. Replace with NTK sensors instead of OEM.  Again, small sampling size, but these sensors may be more durable/better suited to hold up to the new location.

3. Not use BBK.  Although the prices are a bit higher, the other manufacturers (Borla/Bassani) may work better than the BBK.

4. Go to a shorty header/Off-Road xpipe combo.  (too much detail to get into here, but this setup is comparable to LT setup)

 

I would like for users of ALL manufacturers of Longtube Headers to please chime and report if you have ever had (or not had) any issues with your setup.

 

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Nice insight Jason! I had Borla LTs with no cats, resonators and custom 2.5" piping post headers with zero issues since day 1 on stock wires and sensors

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I have the BBK long tube headers and I get those same codes from time to time. Always the drivers side front 02 sensor. Its bullshit

 

 

You running O2 sensor extensions? If so, there's your issue.

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You running O2 sensor extensions? If so, there's your issue.

Yes, I have 02 sensor extensions. I have a feeling your completely correct.

 

The Mustang Source Website sucks a$$ and the moderators are complete tool bags

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Kind of just the nature of the beast with the BBK. Problem is, sensors are an expensive fix.... $110 per sensor each time. Sucks

Freaking A right bro. It gets costly every time an 02 sensor goes.

 

The Mustang Source Website sucks a$$ and the moderators are complete tool bags

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Kind of just the nature of the beast with the BBK. Problem is, sensors are an expensive fix.... $110 per sensor each time. Sucks

 

I found O2 sensors on AutoNation(formerly Tousley)'s website for $50each.

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Ok so the prices aren't exactly what they were when I first searched. Here's what I found just now:

 

DY-1185

  • AutoNation(Tousley)...$101.73, $130.58. I don't know why there is a price difference.
  • Amazon.com.....$63.40
  • My Parts Garage.....$66.74
  • Karl Autoparts......$76.20

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Ok so the prices aren't exactly what they were when I first searched. Here's what I found just now:

 

DY-1185

  • AutoNation(Tousley)...$101.73, $130.58. I don't know why there is a price difference.
  • Amazon.com.....$63.40
  • My Parts Garage.....$66.74
  • Karl Autoparts......$76.20
Tasca is showing the front O2 sensors at 130, the rears are 50. Maybe that's what you saw. Add a 5% discount to that as well.

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Tasca is showing the front O2 sensors at 130, the rears are 50. Maybe that's what you saw. Add a 5% discount to that as well.

 

 

They were definitely in the $50-55 range. Still got pretty close at $63 each on Amazon.

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When I replaced the front O2's (widebands) on my car Jon Lund strongly recommended only using the OEM Ford sensors.  My sensors went bad because I used some leaded racing gas in my car.

 

I never had any codes or any other O2 sensor problems while running the BBK long tube headers on my car.  I actually got a replacement set of O2 extensions from BBK while they were under warranty because I thought they were bad.   They weren't, the problem was coming from the O2 sensors themselves from the racing gas that I mixed in as I previously mentioned.

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When I replaced the front O2's (widebands) on my car Jon Lund strongly recommended only using the OEM Ford sensors. My sensors went bad because I used some leaded racing gas in my car.

 

I never had any codes or any other O2 sensor problems while running the BBK long tube headers on my car. I actually got a replacement set of O2 extensions from BBK while they were under warranty because I thought they were bad. They weren't, the problem was coming from the O2 sensors themselves from the racing gas that I mixed in as I previously mentioned.

So instead of ordering an 02 sensor from AM that doesn't carry OEM ford 02 sensors, go buy an an autual Ford 02 sensor. Thanks bro

 

The Mustang Source Website sucks a$$ and the moderators are complete tool bags

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Yes, now I see MAC has headers with 1-5/8" primaries. I was thinking that would be a good size for the 3.7 then I realized this was supposed to be about header issues with O2 sensors and error codes, and I was getting off on a tangent as I sometimes do. :)

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Hey, everyone!

Was searching for P2251 today and came across this thread.

 

My car has had BBK long tubes since 2011, and yesterday was the first time this code has ever come up.

I'm not running the extensions, as the ones that came with the headers were faulty. Go figure.

 

The only catch.. I'm a Coyote guy.

Just figured I'd chime in to let y'all know that you're not the only ones!!

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Hey, everyone!

Was searching for P2251 today and came across this thread.

 

My car has had BBK long tubes since 2011, and yesterday was the first time this code has ever come up.

I'm not running the extensions, as the ones that came with the headers were faulty. Go figure.

 

The only catch.. I'm a Coyote guy.

Just figured I'd chime in to let y'all know that you're not the only ones!!

 

 

Hello and welcome!

 

Peter, with BBK long tubes isn't this from the collector design that allowed moisture to disrupt the O2 sensor?

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Hey, everyone!

Was searching for P2251 today and came across this thread.

 

My car has had BBK long tubes since 2011, and yesterday was the first time this code has ever come up.

I'm not running the extensions, as the ones that came with the headers were faulty. Go figure.

 

The only catch.. I'm a Coyote guy.

Just figured I'd chime in to let y'all know that you're not the only ones!!

 

Hey thanks for joining! Yeah it seems like the P2251 is a fault within the O2 sensor itself due to the longtube headers causing the sensor to collect moisture like what nastang87xx said. It's great that your car went as long as it has before having any issues, some start running into trouble within a few months. What you can do is clear the fault and swap the front O2 sensors side to side and see if the fault follows the sensor or if it stays on the same side. P2251 is bank 1 sensor 1 so the upstream sensor on the passenger side.

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hi, I'm new here, did anyone found a solution for this problem with bbk longtube headers and wideband sensors going bad all the time?

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hi, I'm new here, did anyone found a solution for this problem with bbk longtube headers and wideband sensors going bad all the time?

Welcome to the forum! But as far as I know, yea its just par for the course unfortunately. 

Do you already have the LT's and looking for a solution, or looking to buy headers and worried about it?

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